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UPPER MANAGEMENT
Fantasy Sports Neighborhood
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Welcome to THE UPPER MANAGEMENT. Fantasy Sports Neighborhood.
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The UM opened August 17th, 2007 as a handpicked 100 members who were asked to join for their smarts and community involvement. But the word got out that the UM neighborhood is not just your average start up community! .... Members begun jumping in from word of mouth .. and now the UM stands at 300+ members and over 30,000 posts and growing!
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| Who is your NL Cy Young Winner? |
| Brandon Webb |
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57% |
[ 11 ] |
| Tim Lincecum |
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31% |
[ 6 ] |
| Edinson Volquez |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Dan Haren |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
| Ryan Dempster |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Johan Santana |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Cole Hamels |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Other |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 19 |
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Grid
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 2098
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 Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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WEBB
He even has magical powers, as seen here levitating bat.
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460 TD's and counting!
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lkat75
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Lincecum would have 30 wins if he played in Arizona.
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Koby Schellenger
Inter-Affiliate
Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 1471
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TheGrandSalami wrote: |
It doesn't have to come from a winning team, but I feel like the success of the team is, for me, a tiebreaker, and look at where the Diamondbacks would be without Webb.
| Quote: |
| Lincecum has it all. 2nd in H/9. 1st in K/9. 1st in K. 8th in BB. 1st in DIPS. 4th in ERC. Tops in VORP. Every category that matters he's tops, or very near. |
Way to cherry pick and avoid Lincecum's #11 1.19 WHIP. Webb is as close to the top of the league as Lincecum, and the amount he means to his team should be the deciding factor.
Btw, Pac Bell Park is cavernous. Just in case we're keeping track of this. |
But why should the accomplishment of a TEAM affect an INDIVIDUAL award? It just doesn't make any sense at all. It's completely arbitrary.
As to cherry picking, it's not. WHIP just isn't that important. It's like using team success as a metric. It just doesn't matter. Lincecum is 1st in the league in SLG-against, 15th in OBP-against & tops in OPS-against.
As to Pac Bell being cavernous (with the implication that it's pitcher-friendly), first, it's AT&T & second, it's neutral. B-R lists the single-year park factor at 100 & multi-year park-factor at 100. This year, ESPN lists it as an offensive-friendly park.
If you want to get nit-picky, consider that San Francisco ranks 23rd in Defensive Efficiency. With Ray Durham fielding balls at second in his walker most of the year, any ball hit up the middle was an adventure.
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hessshaun
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1025
Location: Philly
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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To add, ATT has been sporadic in terms of its mean in relation to hitting vs. pitcher friendly. I would say that it leans more towards a hitter's park and I think that is proven by ESPN ranking it as a hitter's park. Look at their lineup and tell me who can mash. Exactly.
Also, check out his road splits if home is so friendly. His numbers on the road make his home numbers look childish
W 9
L 1
IP 95.2
H 75
R 26
ER 21
HR 2
BB 41
K 110
ERA 1.98
WHIP 1.21
BAA .217
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Signatures are for pussies.
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Grid
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 2098
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Good Lord, the Giants haven't played a big game in years let alone in 2008. Webb has carried his team into the playoffs two years straight.
Stop knit picking numbers and cherry picking the stats that support your asinine argument, Webb is a god on the mound.
_________________
460 TD's and counting!
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superpoon
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1299
Location: Bridgeport, CT
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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The magical powers clinch it for him.
_________________
This sig is to coerce Michael Clayton out of sucking balls in '08
Superpoon GFX Archive
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Koby Schellenger
Inter-Affiliate
Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 1471
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Grid wrote: |
Good Lord, the Giants haven't played a big game in years let alone in 2008. Webb has carried his team into the playoffs two years straight.
Stop knit picking numbers and cherry picking the stats that support your asinine argument, Webb is a god on the mound. |
No one is saying Webb isn't having an excellent season. But what makes it better than Lincecum's? Nothing except incomplete stats & some silly reasoning like "you have to be a playoff team". If being in the playoffs matters so much, explain why. If it's so imperative for individual awards, it should be very easy to explain why. I'm still waiting for ANYONE to even come close to answering that.
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Grid
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 2098
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Koby Schellenger wrote: |
| Grid wrote: |
Good Lord, the Giants haven't played a big game in years let alone in 2008. Webb has carried his team into the playoffs two years straight.
Stop knit picking numbers and cherry picking the stats that support your asinine argument, Webb is a god on the mound. |
No one is saying Webb isn't having an excellent season. But what makes it better than Lincecum's? Nothing except incomplete stats & some silly reasoning like "you have to be a playoff team". If being in the playoffs matters so much, explain why. If it's so imperative for individual awards, it should be very easy to explain why. I'm still waiting for ANYONE to even come close to answering that. |
Because performing under pressure & expectations and doing it consistently is much more difficult than not doing so... duh.
_________________
460 TD's and counting!
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hessshaun
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1025
Location: Philly
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Grid wrote: |
| Koby Schellenger wrote: |
| Grid wrote: |
Good Lord, the Giants haven't played a big game in years let alone in 2008. Webb has carried his team into the playoffs two years straight.
Stop knit picking numbers and cherry picking the stats that support your asinine argument, Webb is a god on the mound. |
No one is saying Webb isn't having an excellent season. But what makes it better than Lincecum's? Nothing except incomplete stats & some silly reasoning like "you have to be a playoff team". If being in the playoffs matters so much, explain why. If it's so imperative for individual awards, it should be very easy to explain why. I'm still waiting for ANYONE to even come close to answering that. |
Because performing under pressure & expectations and doing it consistently is much more difficult than not doing so... duh. |
He is under just as much pressure as a pitcher on a 500 team like Arizona. We all know they are not contenders, but without Lincecum they are the Nats.
And who the fuck is putting pressure on the DBacks? The Dodgers? They are 3 games under 500.
When you open up the season like he did with 36 IP, 7ERs and 40 k's, I think that pressure remains to perform at a higher lever regardless what the team is doing. This is the major leagues and not some squirt league.
_________________
Signatures are for pussies.
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TheGrandSalami
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If being in the playoffs matters so much, explain why. If it's so imperative for individual awards, it should be very easy to explain why. I'm still waiting for ANYONE to even come close to answering that. |
Have you not been paying attention? I said that it's a tiebreaker of sorts. Lincecum is better than Webb in some areas, Webb is better than Lincecum in others. So I go to the tiebreaker: The fact that Webb appears to be pitching his team into the playoffs while Lincecum has not pitched a single big game in his entire career.
Oh btw if we're going to discuss park factors, Chase Field is the number 1 hitters park based on park factors.
| Quote: |
He is under just as much pressure as a pitcher on a 500 team like Arizona. We all know they are not contenders, but without Lincecum they are the Nats.
And who the fuck is putting pressure on the DBacks? The Dodgers? They are 3 games under 500.
When you open up the season like he did with 36 IP, 7ERs and 40 k's, I think that pressure remains to perform at a higher lever regardless what the team is doing. This is the major leagues and not some squirt league. |
What are you talking about? So what if the Giants end up as bad as the Nationals. That doesn't put any pressure on Lincecum at all. The Giants are already a disgrace. They have one of the highest payrolls in baseball and they use it on Barry Zito and Aaron Roward and Ray Durham and Omar Vizquel and about 5,000 other mediocre players. I don't see how Tim Lincecum not being the best pitcher in the National League adds any disgrace to that franchise especially considering that Lincecum is 24 and if he's at all good Giants fans are going to be glad that they have a major league quality player on their team younger than 35. So I see no pressure on him from that standpoint.
And yes, Brandon Webb is the DBacks stopper, which means he's supposed to go out every time and win the baseball game, and this year he's done a damn good job of it too. Despite the fact that the rest of the team is "eh" he's done his best to keep them ahead of Dodgers, who, despite their record, are hanging tough in that division and put a lot more pressure on Brandon Webb than anything puts on Tim Lincecum.
And who cares how he opened up the season? In case you forgot, Edinson Volquez started off the season really hot but has fallen off greatly. Do Reds fans not like him anymore? No. They are glad that there is a good young pitcher who has the ability to strike guys out and win games on their team. There is absolutely not a shred of pressure on Tim Lincecum.
Don't get me wrong. Tim Lincecum is one of the best pitchers in the National League. He's probably having as good a season as Brandon Webb is. But when you look at the impact they've had on their team, which is a good tiebreaker, all Tim Lincecum has done is pitch a lot of no-pressure games while Brandon Webb has to carry his team on his back every five days.
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quiksilver
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 2175
Location: Californ-i-a
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have time to respond to everything-- but if you guys think that Lincecum doesn't pitch as hard as Webb or whatever you guys are insinuating by saying that he isn't on a contender, well that's just false. I can guarantee that both pitchers give 110% every time on the mound. Webb is more valuable to his team-- then how has a calculated metric for value determined Lincecum to be a step above Webb?
Without Webb the DBacks might be out of a playoff position right now-- without Lincecum the Giants would be flirting with the worst record in the majors... neither of these aspects should be reflected on the individual, especially one who plays once every five games and has four other starting pitchers and an entire bullpen helping or hurting his cause.
On a side note, the above doesn't include last night's outing from Lincecum, which further cemented some stats (he now leads the ERA race by 30 points, and is 40 strikeouts ahead of #2). He also picked up his 15th win, meaning he now also accounts for over 25% of his team's wins.
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TheGrandSalami
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Darko I'm not saying Webb tries harder, but some pitchers are simply not good under pressure and Lincecum has not had a chance to prove himself.
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Koby Schellenger
Inter-Affiliate
Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 1471
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I think you guys who give any degree of credence to the team results are off your rockers. It just doesn't apply to individual awards.
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hessshaun
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 1025
Location: Philly
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| TheGrandSalami wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If being in the playoffs matters so much, explain why. If it's so imperative for individual awards, it should be very easy to explain why. I'm still waiting for ANYONE to even come close to answering that. |
Have you not been paying attention? I said that it's a tiebreaker of sorts. Lincecum is better than Webb in some areas, Webb is better than Lincecum in others. So I go to the tiebreaker: The fact that Webb appears to be pitching his team into the playoffs while Lincecum has not pitched a single big game in his entire career.
Oh btw if we're going to discuss park factors, Chase Field is the number 1 hitters park based on park factors.
| Quote: |
He is under just as much pressure as a pitcher on a 500 team like Arizona. We all know they are not contenders, but without Lincecum they are the Nats.
And who the fuck is putting pressure on the DBacks? The Dodgers? They are 3 games under 500.
When you open up the season like he did with 36 IP, 7ERs and 40 k's, I think that pressure remains to perform at a higher lever regardless what the team is doing. This is the major leagues and not some squirt league. |
What are you talking about? So what if the Giants end up as bad as the Nationals. That doesn't put any pressure on Lincecum at all. The Giants are already a disgrace. They have one of the highest payrolls in baseball and they use it on Barry Zito and Aaron Roward and Ray Durham and Omar Vizquel and about 5,000 other mediocre players. I don't see how Tim Lincecum not being the best pitcher in the National League adds any disgrace to that franchise especially considering that Lincecum is 24 and if he's at all good Giants fans are going to be glad that they have a major league quality player on their team younger than 35. So I see no pressure on him from that standpoint.
And yes, Brandon Webb is the DBacks stopper, which means he's supposed to go out every time and win the baseball game, and this year he's done a damn good job of it too. Despite the fact that the rest of the team is "eh" he's done his best to keep them ahead of Dodgers, who, despite their record, are hanging tough in that division and put a lot more pressure on Brandon Webb than anything puts on Tim Lincecum.
And who cares how he opened up the season? In case you forgot, Edinson Volquez started off the season really hot but has fallen off greatly. Do Reds fans not like him anymore? No. They are glad that there is a good young pitcher who has the ability to strike guys out and win games on their team. There is absolutely not a shred of pressure on Tim Lincecum.
Don't get me wrong. Tim Lincecum is one of the best pitchers in the National League. He's probably having as good a season as Brandon Webb is. But when you look at the impact they've had on their team, which is a good tiebreaker, all Tim Lincecum has done is pitch a lot of no-pressure games while Brandon Webb has to carry his team on his back every five days. |
You should have stopped after your first quote. I agree with that and I cannot argue that Webb might be better than Lincecum in some aspects and vice versa.
As for your comments on my quote, pay attention. Fundamentally, the record is irrelevant. I dont give a fuck who is team's so called "stopper". You think someone else on the Giants is their stopper? You are nuts, they both are their team's best pitcher which is why this is even a discussion. They both have the same pressure and that is to get outs for their team to win. If pressure determined the Cy Young winner, Jeff Suppan would have killed everyone two years ago. Does that sound right to you? Pointless argument.
I mentioned his opening for the season because he continued to pitch as hard in April and May when they were supposedly in "contention." You know, now that they arent, his numbers are still as good indicating that he is still giving it his all regardless. If you think it's not pressure to pitch when you are putting up Cy Young numbers, you are fucking insane. Every hitter in the league is watching film on him and wanting to crush one of the best pitchers in the league whether they are on a bad team or a contender.
As to the Volquez comment, if he doesnt have the numbers he had when he started off the year, are you saying he is uninspired because of the teams performance? Makes no sense and I would highly disagree with that.
Above all, I respect someone's opinion that Webb is better but like Koby said, using Wins as a determination just does not make sense and no one has brought up a valid point yet.
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Grid
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 2098
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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It's not the team it's the situation and how the player responds... but you and Koby seem zoned in on your misconception that everyone is arguing that wins and team stats are the most important thing, which I haven't seen anybody post since the first page, yet you're both still hung up on it. 
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